It is the little theft, it is the little indiscretion, the little affair. Do you go right out in front of your wife and have an affair, and does she like it? Now there are some, you know, I'm using this as an example, I'm not saying it's good or bad or alright. It's wrong. And you know it's wrong, because you're hurting somebody else. Maybe you are not hurt, and maybe your lover is not hurt, but oh my, your wife is pained greatly. So when you ask about the message, I have no other message to bring, other than if you don't start living by the moral laws of God as handed down to mankind, you are God's children. And as a parent, and if you want to consider me a parent, that's just fine with me. Because if I lie to you, or if I tell you, hey, it's okay to have that affair. No, I won't tell you that. But I will tell you it's your business.

And my message is one of total responsibility. You see, most people do not want to hear my message because once you know truth, once you understand and you know, there is no going back to not knowing. Now you can argue with yourself and say, oh, that was nothing. That's fine. You will never go from this place. If you even question the possibility of truth here, you will never go from this place ever again able to put it aside. That's what it's about. And that is the message. All are birthed with this knowledge of right and wrong, and you know that what is going on in this world, this day, is wrong. It's morally corrupt. It's wrong. And these are the unending, undying, absolute laws of the universe. These are universal laws. There are cosmic laws, there are universal physics laws, this is the law by which man is supposed to conduct himself.

And these are the things you will have to come to be in your beingness, your intent. You are not judged on anything this lower half of your face says. God has capability of discerning intent. What is your intent? And this is why common law is going to have to come back to your nations or you're lost. You cannot continue to go in Admiralty, Maritime, British, high seas law of the dictator or the Admiral and corrupt attorneys and a judicial system that functions for itself and can then enforce the laws that are illegitimate and unconstitutional. They force them off on you, the people, because they can, and that is force, and that is wrong, and you know it's wrong. You don't need a lesson from a preacher to tell you these are wrong activities.

So you're going to have to come along and bring back the law of honor to your court. What is just? What is right? There is no justice in your court. You might as well call it the unjust system. So let us deal with what is. You know what's right and you know what's wrong. And you're very quick to say, well, that was wrong. But is it as wrong if it affects you as it is if it affects someone you don't know, you see. And you're going to have to learn to care about this when you don't know. This is called brotherhood. You have to come back within caring about the freedom of your fellow man.

And I don't talk about worship. Don't go worship anything, God included. you to be lesser to worship some thing, all your parents want from you, all your God wants from you, is a reflection of what you are in as near perfection as you can get. Like a parent is not going to slap you down if you make a mistake. Commander? Yes. Uh, does the gentleman from extra want to walk around and talk to a few people? You're fine, I don't want to stop you. I just want to have you turn the volume down. They want us to turn it down.

Well, I would assume rest. Then it's probably a good time. What is today? What is today? What is today? Guy? What is today? Your anniversary. What is today? Our anniversary was the 5th.

Oh! You missed Christie? Did you remember? No! Not until the 2nd when he asked how long we'd been married. Uh-oh! Did you remember that? No. I didn't know what today was. They cried during the week. That is not so, Wally. I Don't know I put any fun. I can't be right here You have an audience there I guess I Think that's the monitor check the lighting I don't know if I can speak or communicate like this.

It was at home and it would be like my husband. I believe that Dr. Overholt was there and we were doing other things. Mr. Martin was often there. It was like kindergarten for me. Let me ask you, J.F. What do you remember about how this all first began, the translating of the commander? Did you know what was happening? Were you scared? Were you concerned?

Curious. It began with a gathering that she described. There was a lady here who called herself Tweeta. She was from Indiana. She had been asked to come out here to be with this gathering, to introduce the commander to us. We didn't know at the time it was to us, it was just sort of to the general gathering. And after Tweeda went back to Indianapolis, there was a period of a week or so and Doris began to write things. It's the same thing as called automatic writing. But she wrote so fast and it ran into each other and we were trying to keep all of the people who were associated with the gathering up to date with ongoing things.

So I mean at some point she started speaking with the commander's voice? Yes. Out of the blue? Well, no. The reason she started speaking was because it took me a long time to translate from her handwriting, which all runs together and it's all one line. The commander suggested that she get a tape recorder so that she could also speak it as she was writing it. And pretty soon, instead of writing it at all, she was speaking it.

Why do you think the commander chose your wife? Well, he answered that question once today, because he can trust her. When he says bullshit, she says bullshit. Trust her with what? With telling it exactly the way he says it she does not edit his work his words and apparently he has known her in other lives to use that term trips to use mine what do you see as the essence of the commander's message? I know you've covered a wide variety of topics. Is it possible it can be boiled down?

Or is that impossible? It would be impossible for me. I cannot speak for the commander. No, but I'm saying your understanding of what the message is. I mean, you've been listening for a long time. What is it that you've heard? Well, when the man who was later called Jesus, whose name was actually Emmanuel at the time, was here on earth 2,000 years ago, he was told and he passed on the information that in these latter days, in the latter days, the word would come forth and the word would be truth and the word would be love and the word would be light. There are many characterizations. My understanding that the commander's mission at this time is to deliver on that promise from God. The promise of? Bringing forth the word, the truth.

And the truth is spread on that wall over there. See, all of those Phoenix journals are a recording of these last days. And the truth is what, in your words? Well, there are 200 volumes So there's a long it's a long. It's not it's not a simple answer to that question I guess I know I mean are you talking about like the world is going to end or we need to change or You know what I'm saying what's the point I Mean you were talking about these latter days Men have created quite a number of corrections to the Bible over time to serve themselves. And among some of those corrections are various and sundry prophecies.

The commander told you today that those prophecies need not be fulfilled if we make up our minds that that's not the way we want it to end. The technology is available to more than one government on our planet to end the planet. Let me shift the direction just a little bit. What is the relevance of all of this to the Phoenix Institute? The Phoenix Institute is a Nevada corporation that was set up at the suggestion of George Green so that we could accept funds and have additional the newspaper and the journals. George was the publisher of the first 50 journals, as the commander mentioned. Funds were to come into the Phoenix Institute and be used to purchase gold. Gold was put into a bank where there could be a line of credit drawn against that gold as collateral. Quite a number of advantages to this, especially as George saw it, because he had been in the... Did that happen? Oh yes. You bought gold?

Oh yes. But the price hasn't gone up I guess as you anticipated or hoped? No, as a matter of fact it hasn't gone anywhere. It has been between 400 and 330 all the time. So what do you say to the Betty Tootins out there that have these promissory notes that I could show you that say to be payable on demand and now she claims she can't get her money back and that she felt she was a securities broker, not just a salesman, but he had a brokerage or a dealer's license. He was very knowledgeable in that business and he said that the promissory note between corporations and trusts was not registrable as a security and that at the same time, the the promissory note, if it did not contain all of the conditions, that it would not become a security. And so in the promissory note and the site agreement, he required, I guess you'd say, that we not, I guess you might say tell the whole story in this, in that everybody who of those notes was told by George and by myself that gold had to double in price in order for this whole thing to work out.

Because if you're using a line of credit against a collateral, you've got to have an increase in the price of the gold in order to pay off the note. So all of these people understood that. Leon Ford understood it. Betty Tutin understood it. There isn't anybody. So now they're in effect want to change the rules after the fact. That's what it boils down to. I don't blame Betty so much as I do George.

There are some who feel that you might have taken advantage of people, got them to loan in effect their life savings. You don't recall suggesting that anybody loan all of their life savings that was not that's not my idea George may have done that I can't speak for him my understanding of any situation was that she had an additional million-dollar inheritance whatever became of that I don't have any idea but as far as I know the $400,000 that she talked about here wasn't all of it. I mean why do you need people's money? Well we don't we don't make enough money in the contact for instance to support The farm is a research facility and isn't intended to earn a profit. And it hasn't.

It hasn't even paid its way. And I believe you talked with Rod Ince. He was the farmer out there. He was drawing something like $50,000 a year, and it was costing him quite a lot more than that. And all the while that was going on, there was no income coming in. You all seem like a great group of people, but why are we talking with four, five, six people in the area that say they're afraid to talk about you guys? Former members, other people, other members. I mean, what do they base that on?

Are they just using their wild imaginations? Well, number one, they want to get EJ and I. I don't, I'm not sure why. I really am not sure why. They want to get back at you? We don't really and haven't controlled anything. This is something that is very interesting and I think that maybe you ought to know this. We don't get anything for the work. I don't believe that God can be for sale. I don't believe that truth should be for sale.

If books are published, they have to be paid for. Right. You have to pay for print. So there's no hidden bank accounts? Of course there's not. You're not profiting off of this. It becomes totally ridiculous. You think that it's absurd that we're even here asking you these questions. No, I don't think it's absurd, because I think it's time that a lot of things are talked about.

With the theft of the gold, this sort of brought it to a head. And Dr. Carlson is here from Hawaii. One of the most recent things that I have seen that was appalling to me was George Green giving a seminar, really for Dr. Carlson and friends. He talks greatly about his great expertise. He's a millionaire. He owned a bank. He is this. He is that. That can be made available to you.

He creates the illusion of money. All these people that are here, they're not required to donate or to loan. It's open. They can come here. And when they say we've taken some, I have not taken a cent from anybody, including Betty Tootin or Leon Ford. These were, I considered them friends. We did not go on the road. We did not have seminars. We didn't do anything.

He and I stayed right here. I mean, you'd be content to stay here in relative anonymity and have your meetings and that you don't want attention you're not trying to spread the word or are you? Well I would hope that the I would hope that now that the truth would get out there and when we talk about truth it is such a it is such a silly word to use. We talk about politics we talk about religion we are informed of many things and to say to you. And so what is our purpose? What is my purpose? Well I think that if I could sum it up, just sitting here trying to put it into a short little scenario, is that we have as a civilization gotten into trouble. I don't think it is better now or worse now than it was 2,000 years ago if you look at what historically was taking place. I think we have to confront as individual people and assume responsibility for our government, our style of living, our moral, our being, Our being. Our being. And yet I have no right to speak to your brothers, if you will.

Well, I'm sure there are a lot of people who agree with you 100%. But why do you need the commander to say that? Why can't you say it as Doris sitting on that chair? It seems to me, as an outsider, that you lose credibility when you bring in the story of the commander. But I'm not asking for credibility. I'm not asking for anything. It's going to shock you to know that I don't. I don't send out papers. I would hope that you would be able to look at me and see that I am sincere. If I am lying, it is honest. I'm not trying to sell you anything. I'm trying to be gracious. You came here and this is what I am. I have nothing else to offer. I think it would be nice if I could get up, but I would like to remind you of a few people that have gotten up and spoken spoken for themselves and look they're in more shape than I am and that's Claire Proffitt, Catherine Kuhlman, that's before your time.

I mean, the energy is just incredible. And I just want to say, I don't want to interrupt them, but you asked an important question here. She doesn't want any attention, and you say, well, why doesn't she just speak? Why have commander? Because none of us mere mortals are in command of these many different things. I'm from the academic world. I know how long it takes to put a book together. Yeah. Okay?

You do not write 200 books. Nobody on this planet has enough knowledge to write 200 books in this many years on that many diverse subjects. So if she were to try to lie and say, She wrote it. We have a big problem. You might as well be completely honest and say, it ain't me. I'm no more than a radio receiver. And the stuff is spewing down from a much more sophisticated being than me. That's the key element here. All right. So try lying and see how far you're going to get. Now, you want to make it clear, though, that you're not a cult, I mean you guys have laughed when you used that term before, I mean how would you describe what goes on here?

I guess you might call it a loose association of people. With similar beliefs. journals and the newspaper for the purpose of getting the attention of certain people in the United States and all around the world. To tell them what? Well, to tell them that the truth is here available. You don't want to commit to what the truth is though. I'm going to ask you that three or four times. I know you mentioned that's in the 200 journals, but hang on a second. You've been dealing with this every day. This is your life. Yes. So what I'm trying to get from you is your interpretation of what the message is, why you're all here, and what it is that you want to get out.

Let me try you one more time. I know it's hard with the cameras and the lights and all that, it's distracting, but... The basic truth is that we are all one. All... All, everything, all, comes from God, God creator. And we are all the thought of God. And if you listen to the American Indians, the American natives, Native Americans I should say, you'll find that they say everything is connected. Every aboriginal group in the world has that basic philosophy. in a paper called the Universal One. And that is that energy, from the thought of God, coalesces, first maybe into holograms, but finally down into this physical level.

So would you describe that as a philosophy, as a religion, as simply a way of life? I'm not much on philosophy or religion, but as a way of life, it gives you something to understand and the seeking, the soul seeking inside of everybody, the unrest that we all feel is our desire to get back there to that source. Again, I don't want to keep dwelling on this, but the people that are disgruntled about the financial end of things, are people who misunderstood the arrangement and are simply trying to get back something they're not entitled to now? I wish I could be that kind. The people who are disgruntled with the arrangement, most of them were called by George Green to come to a meeting in Carson City in early February of 1993. And at that meeting he said to them, take your money out of the Institute, bring it up here, and we'll redo this situation and we'll do it right this time. So most of those people came back here.

A couple of days later, we had a telephone call from a lady in Florida who said, I just spoke with George Green, and he said to get our money out of the Institute right away because they were going to take it down. And George has been working on that ever since because he knows that as long as the Institute is in business, he can't get his hands on that gold and he's promised that gold to so many attorneys and other people that he's gonna have a real problem when he does not get his hands on that gold how much gold is that 1100 ounces and at today's price that's somewhere in the neighborhood of $400,000 is that all the assets of the Institute basically?

No. That's the gold he actually took. He took it? Yeah. So it's not under your control anymore? No. That was given to the Institute. It was sent to George as an officer and director. It was given to the Institute. And he did not tell us or anyone else.

Where is it now? He kited it off to Nevada. So you have, the Institute has no gold? Well, the Institute does have gold. Georgia's gold or other gold? No, other gold. How much does the Institute have? That's private information. A lot or little? A lot.

So what would be wrong with, if you have these people who want their money back, selling some and giving it to them? Because there is ongoing litigation. Between... There are notes. Don't misunderstand something. It's like holding stocks. If you turn in your stocks, you've lost if the price is down. This is just simple market arithmetic. people that have shared and loaned pay them to have litigation against and try to put the institute into receivership which has been tried.

We will put it into what they call involuntary receivership, appoint receivers, sell all the assets and then there are going to be some that are going to lose. Why would you want to do that if you really were not just, I don't like to use the term evil, but what in the world could be gained by these people doing what they are doing? You have to understand, their notes are just as good as they were the day they were written. But there are not the funds just to write them a check. Why would you write Betty Tootin who is suing you? It's more than that. This lady had another friend. What's the purpose of the note then?

I'm not a business person. Everybody knew exactly what they were doing and you will find and I can get down and and if we want to get really grimy about this Betty Tooton put nothing in the Institute zero zip she certainly didn't give it to us the 400 and she had a corporation we when when these people come and they say I want my money back yeah well supposing you're GE and Joe Blow comes in and says, I want my money back. Well, I don't even know who you are. What are you talking about? If you bring, or do you represent a corporation? Well, yes I do.

Well, which corporation? Well, I'm not going to tell you. Well, then you're not going to get any money back, not out of this corporation. Does that cast you in a bad light? I don't care what kind of a light. This is law, this is business, this is honor and integrity. If you want, if you literally feel you have put money in, but you have used a corporation to do so with another corporation, then you have to come and you have to bring the proper application to get your money back. So your message to Betty is what at this point?

I don't have any message for Betty at this point. Betty Tootin went out there and literally went into an agent's office and took three corporation sets of books for a woman in Florida. It wasn't enough to do that once. We had to report that to the police. She took it. They changed the corporate officers. They changed the corporate structure. It was illegal. It was a crime. So we tried to talk to her. Alright, just get the books back. To the corporate officers. To the corporate agents. agent. They pulled them out again and this time she put herself in as the agent.

But all of these notes, these promissory notes, I mean are these worth anything? Do they mean anything or is it just paper? Who are they to? Well this Bethel Enterprises to, Phoenix Institute paid a Bethel Enterprises $50,000. Phoenix Institute paid a Bethel Enterprises $40,000. Phoenix Energy paid a Bethel Enterprise $55,000. Who is Bethel Enterprise? That's Betty Tootin's company. That's Betty's corporation, right? I don't know. Are there any side agreements there?

I don't know. That's all I have. I mean, look, you know, it doesn't matter to me whether Betty Tootin gave you $400,000 or $8 million. This is the whole reason we found out about your organization because she wrote us a letter. Thank you. I don't mean us directly. No, we didn't know who it was. I don't mean us directly, but apparently she sent a letter to a variety of news organizations and so forth. So, you know, here we have a little old lady who gave $400,000 to the Institute, and I use the term gave loosely.

You certainly are. She may have created a corporation and gave them money. You guys live in this world. She gave nothing. She gave nothing and she pulled interest on her notes. The perception is you stole poor Betty's money. Well, I don't care what the perception is. That is outright wrong. The reality is what? She made a loan to a corporation? She might as well have gone down and loaned GE some money or the bank or whatever there are there are procedures number one and number two she has created a crime against us and i'm not talking when i say us there's anybody else in this room who is norah is the secretary of the Phoenix Institute, Mr. Leonthal.

I feel, and you may air this if you want to, I feel you were extremely remiss. You are the only tabloid that has run such garbage. Well, it's not a tabloid, but that's okay. Well, I... What else do we want to ask? Sorry, what was it? How do you make a living? You say you don't take any funds from the institute and you're not... Do you have an income or get regular jobs?

Social security. He was 12 years with Transamerica in the financial business. Occidental Transamerica. So your income is mainly social security now? And pension. And pension. From Transamerica? Yes. What was your profession when you worked for them? I was in the investment department. Any specialty? It was called Trans-American Investment Management at the time. So you're saying that the Eckers do not profit in any way from the Institute, the loans, contact?

We pay rent on our house. No, we do not profit. We have paid bitterly trying to make up and just hang together long enough so that everybody that was left stranded here, that it wouldn't just fall apart, we have stayed here. When George Green left this place, he even took the subscriptions to the paper with him. These are damaging, horrible things to try to live through when the man is saying you've made millions of dollars and you've received nothing. And you're about to lose your house anyway because of the legal manipulations. And that is worth another four weeks. You've got a series to run on that one. People that have been associated with you in the past and are now on, let's say, the other side of the fence accuse you of mind control, of brainwashing themselves.

Do you feel mind control this afternoon? We're not talking about me we're talking about the people that are around you perhaps people that you've encouraged to invest into the Phoenix Institute how do you respond to the accusation that you're using brainwashing and seizing on people who may be open to this kind of thing because they're searching I don't have any answer I do. That's one of George Green's favorite stories. Confusing, you mean? Well, yes. And actually, he's pretty good at it himself.

Let's get a free shot. Okay. Free shot. We'll get the rest of you. If you have anything else, that wasn't the end of our question. If you have anything else you want to touch on, we didn't just going to get a couple of shots of us here for editing purposes. Oh, you mentioned the wind energy business? That's what brought you out here to Hatch Pia initially? What, in the 80s? I guess it was that.

Where were you before that? In L.A.? Yes. How, were you trying to manufacture machines? We put up wind machines. As far as our terrible reputation, as a matter of fact, we put up a wind park for a man that you might want to check out by the name of George Schorkenberger. He was the head of city financing in New York. He was, I think, in 1986, the highest paid executive... In New York?

In the United States, yes. City financing was in New York. We had a great relationship with him and I don't think that other than these people that you interviewed, I don't think you're going to find anything impeachable about our character. And when it would have been far easier to leave this place, we chose and do what we could do to make sure nobody lost anything. And it's been difficult. Really, really difficult. And most of the people that are in this room... Lost what? I mean, what was there to lose? When you damage a corporation as badly as we have been maligned, as Phoenix Institute, the Ecker, Ecker Institute, and this sort of thing, People are going to lose if you put this corporation into receivership.

They know people are going to lose whatever they have loaned. It's simple business. And I'm going to tell you from time to time it would have been so easy, so easy just to say, well, why don't we just go? Why don't we just let it go? And people say, why do you keep struggling? Even about our house, the property. Because what was done was wrong. Why should people, and some of these people in here have loaned money to the institute, and that's why they're here this afternoon.

Because we have stayed to try to work through the theft, the bad publicity. It isn't a commander over there in the middle of the room or a me. We feel responsible and when you want the message, the message is if we don't get responsible, this world is in trouble. And it's easy enough maybe to gather up 1100 ounces of gold and go bury it in your yard and hope you never get caught, but it's wrong. And if we don't start living right, we are never going to make it. This society is going to fold in on itself. Already the children in the cities are shooting each other. They don't have anything better to do. They have nothing to look forward to. The only excitement they've got is a little bloodshed. Well I can really get up on the soapbox, because we have been in court, we have paid bitterly just to try to maintain truth and honor and integrity here.

And it's really bad when you guys put somebody like Rod Ent, who stole 50 grand from the Institute. I'm talking about stolen. of the Institute. And he went out and he brought in $23,000 asking for a note. Now you're going to get the note bit. He wanted a note for this. He got it from his mother. He lied. He got it from one of the people, the friends. And they immediately said they did not loan him the money, they did not give him the money. They gave it to the Institute to buy tractors and some equipment for that farm. Well, he came up with tractors and equipment from the farm, and after three years, the farm went down, down, down, down, down. While he was taking welfare and child aid, he was pulling in 50 grand a year from the Institute.